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The 2011 Regeneration Manifesto: Part 3, Structure the Season
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The 2011 Regeneration Manifesto: Part 2, The Situation
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2011 Regeneration Manifesto2011-09-07 12:42 | Welkin
I have decided to address the community with my views and ideas on the current situation in the Quake2 scene, and what I think needs to be done about it.

I will publish this 2011 Regeneration Manifesto piece by piece, over the course of the next couple of weeks. Polish translations will follow, however, at an unknown pace.

This is a call to arms, and it concerns everybody.

Part 1: Introduction
Part 2: The Situation
Part 3: Structure the Season

Please, bear in mind that the different parts are only pieces of a greater whole, meaning that neither one of them individually constitutes the proposal for solution.

Edit: Part 3 will be the last I publish of the manifesto at this time.

A summary written by Gravgon is published on the NDML site, here.

2011-10-02 06:03 
Some ideas:

*** I suggested a divisional system already two years ago, but I recommended to exclude "admin's assessment bias". In other words, competing participants (clans/player) should not be divided according to the admin's best yet subjective judgement but instead allow participants themselves decide their course. This is achievable if there was no divisional separation in a group stage, and group ranking would determine the placement in a divisional playoff system.
Cons are definitely major rapes in a group stage, but pros are more balanced and truly divisional playoffs.

*** Reaching out to the community. This is basically public relations.
1. Active news coverage. Each crew should have at least 1 news writer, whose sole responsibility is to bring up-to-date information to the community. For better quality, news can be divided into: Q2 competition related ("overview of the week #1"emo, and community related ("interviews, updates, lanparties, ideas-columns"emo.
2. Contact community. Talk to people. What I found lacking is that admins contacted community on need-to-deal-with basis (like, what map pool should there be...). Get more involved. For example, different individual polls: what motivates you to play Q2? What is your best time for playing Q2 (what would be the European average Q2 timezone? ;} - 20CET, 21CET?). Or this Polish-European conspiracy theory. Make a poll to find out the real reasons why people are so inactive, instead of jumping to subjective conclusions...
3. Don't ignore the second largest (and growing!) Q2 community - Russian community. I find it a bit off to talk about emerging Polish with European, while disregarding the whole Russian phenomena.

*** Prizes
Prizes is a good idea, yet it has one serious setback. Different countries have different GDP/per capita and average spending potential/per capita. 100 euros can be a huge motivational factor for one party, but a real joke for another. In addition to financial gain, prizes should carry a symbolic value. I wonder how many potential EDL winners would like to have a t-shirt signed by Purri, Damiah & Provi (previous EDL winners)? emo
2011-09-19 13:36 
It's said everywhere that I endorse the Manifesto... If you wanna know why, check the NDML website:
2011-09-17 20:16 
..on second thought, u are not worthy my time.

*totally ignoring*

Edited: 2011-09-17 21:45
2011-09-17 17:03 
So you reply which gives me 'food'... which in turns makes me reply in my own defense...? This is correct...?

I don't know which planet you live on TeiOch but on Earth, when someone says something to you, you reply. It's called communication.

Secondly, when did you 'own' me? I find this hard to believe for two reasons.

1. Because I'm 20x better than you at Quake 2, so I can't see you beating me.

2. You can bearly string a sentence of English together, so I doubt you 'out witted' me.

I have done completely nothing to you... so why are you trying to insult me? Because were I am standing, it's quite sad and childish... and somewhat stupid considering you wouldn't stand a chance against me in Quake 2.

And that ladies is why the Troller is the idiot, not the Troll.

2011-09-17 16:36 
*TeiOch* u are right,im sorry emo
2011-09-17 11:21 
Delete: Talk is cheap'

I know, like everyone else, that You are the eternal idiotic delusional Troll. 'Cause of that, u think I'm stupid like you and will provide you loads of Troll food?
You are endlessly hungry - we know that.

And btw, don't even try......I owned you so bad last time.

QL welcomes you with warm hands' emo
2011-09-17 04:53 
It's the 'Troller', not the 'Troll' that is the idiot TeiOch. Would you poke a bad tempered bear with a stick... ? emo

Edited: 2011-09-17 04:53
2011-09-16 19:34 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You just gave "it" food -.-
2011-09-16 11:57 
You "Delita" called "Provi" cheater and now he need to comeback?
2011-09-13 05:56 
The online gaming market is bigger than ever. If you want to revive Quake 2 you have to grab people off the street and bring them in, rather than watching everyone already in the scene getting old, fat and bored.

Do you understand...? emo

Oh, Purri, I know you are busy trying to be Mr. Celebrity in Quakelive but truth is... Quake 2 scene needs you, as well as players like Damiah. Provi back more than we need the Pols. The Pols are a luxury, they still play Quake 2, and with the right motivation they would come back to the Euro scene when they realise there is competition here.

You were like an icon in Quake 2. People aspired to the top players, especially the ones with a 'name' for themselves. I did myself when I first started Quake 2. I looked up to players like [UNR]Luke and [FED]Liquid^, just as you no doubt looked up to players like Blue. Point is, not only are top players (with good attitudes) inspiration for the lesser players to follow (and feel involved), but also attracts new players. It's not just the Q2 scene though, people would take more interest in Quake 2 leagues on major online gaming communities such as ESReality which helps to encourage a following which in turn brings in new players and inspiration.

Maybe talking Senti into playing Quake 2 again would be good for the scene too. It would show that oldschool players are coming back to their roots and maybe yet again add more encouragement.

It's just my thoughts, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong... Either way, you are a Quake 2 player. emo


Edited: 2011-09-13 06:21
2011-09-13 03:18 
I think you prooved my point. In E#14 there was HBQ and play to fight with for top places, there was BAM and there was contra (former wizards iirc). Heck, add up CBR (muffazors) and Rage into the fray, they still added some spice.

So in this tournament you had tok, 3c (as s0), v3 and even ndiv - 2nd placed team in PLQ2 signed up and all except ndiv which fall apart due to one of his most important members getting banned in polish q2 scene, competed to their highest possibilities. V3 was first in the group, s0 narrowly second after play.

What happened in E#15? 3c playing as o4f (don't ask me why) ignored the league giving away w/os half way through. Tok was giving away wos as well. V3 did not even sign. Reason? Imho main reason was the fact that only one clan that was able to give them a thrill was play. And they were hardly active at all.

I understand that you guys want to believe there is still big prestige in euro. But apparently not in biggest national scene.

But thats just technicalities. My main point is : get more european clans to play and you will have many more polish ones.
2011-09-12 13:52 
You have some good points dr4gunov but I don't agree with you on the prestige idea.

The top polish clans have always played in EQ2L and they always found some challenge there. Only last season had less signups than usual but if you check season #14 v3 won the final against HBQ in a hard fought match.

The polish clans that only play in PLQ2 have good reasons to do so: it's easier, they get to play with good pings all the time, the website is in their own language and... the coverage is really good.

So I would say the strong point of PLQ2 is its coverage and EQ2L crew (which I'm a part of :p) should work on that.

The prestige is where the best clans compete and I'm sorry to tell you it's still in EQ2L.
2011-09-12 07:48 
Thing about euro league for polish players is prestige (or lack of therof). In season 1 my team (rebels) felt that we participated in sth special. Although we played only aganist other polish clans for a right to playoffs it was kinda different, electrifying maybe to be able to compete with clans from different regions at latter stages.

Fast forward to 2011 and there is a sense of emptieness in euro. Some Poles called it pcw league. Hardly any1 treats it seriously. It has nothing to do with patriotism, only prestige. Atm, there is just one clan that can really make signing for euro worthwile for top polish teams - play. And they are basically inactive. HBQ is off, 2.0 is off, Wizards are off, lm is off, KTA etc. No one gets motivated to play in euro which results in many wos which in return create a vicious circle by lowering the league prestige. In last few seasons polish clans were significant majority of contenders. In fact euro has become polish league with few foreign clans. A league with low prestige, let's add.

Bottom line? Don't look at polish scene, we are trying to ressurect it on our own behalf. Have a look at european scene. If there is 10 european clans participating, I would say there would be equal number of polish ones.And it cant be 10 div5 noob teams. You have to make things interesting and gripping for clans like tok, v3 or 3M. If top clans will sign and treat it seriously, in time, the medicore and weak clans will do the same.

I find speculations regarding opening of polish scene for rest of Europe counter productive. Let's not blame the rules of polish national league for demise of European Q2. Imo, talk to former q2 players. Strong finnish teams are obviously great point to start. Some of them even played last season making things much more interesting. But there were many dutch, belgian, bulgarian, italian, french or ukrainian and most notably british clans. They are the ones we should be talking to as well. And put them into low division so they could compete and win every now and than. There is not much time left, signups finish on 26th.
2011-09-10 21:48 
Some speak of getting old-schoolers back, back the truly pld ones, like Shub, Blue, Zack & (the legendary) Makaveli, is virtually impossible. They left the game a loooong time ago being in the very top, they had accomplished what they sought - dominating the game. Then Quake3:ARENA came and most of the top players switched to a fresher camp, and eventually moved on to other games....
So question is, how do you define an old-schooler ?
Should maybe players that rose after the legends mentioned above, like 'the enigmatic fire' (at least back then) Thaigo who started to make a name for himself short after Shub had left the game, count as a potential bring-back?
And about newcomers, that is if they come & stay, 'cuz I can easily imagine they have hard time blend into the community, esp. in terms of skills, so they might wanna enter a tourney, say the EDL, which would only resulting in massive rape upon rapes. And we expect them to "stay"? I have said it once, i say it again, create a league for them, that's a 1st step towards a better and larger Q2 community. It's like any sport.... newcomers must feel welcomed and feel they can bring their skillz and knowledge to use - not compare them to pros and have them show how easily they can rape u. I get a feeling qw is more like no wonder they succeed more - being an older games does not matter at all.
Another issue is ofc the "polish" scene VS the Rest. Quake2 is made to the world, so why not treat it like that? that would certainly change the amount of clans and players in every league, and that in turn would attract more players when they see that Q2 is actually growing. Next step would also be to get Russians and Americans to same portal, but for starters let's concentrate of Europe first: a tryst of countries gathering at One place for the ultimate gaming experience!
Next, the Entire World !

well, that's my cents for now..

and to Sof:
u mentioned "dimmo,provi,gerppa,damiah,slippi,foen" not wanting to play with unknown players, but these Finns know each other and could make a new Finnish powerful clan, possibly including Offi or maybe even Thaigo. emo
2011-09-10 16:38 
Some good points there Welkin.
But I would try looking from other POV/side.
You need to analyze reasons why players are leaving Q2.
Reasons are game itself and players/organization.
Q2 isn't a eye candy game like it was 13 years ago. It is not as attractive as new games. It basically doesn't attract new players. Personally I dont know any new, young players that joined q2 in recent 2 years (I am new, but i played original q2 single player 13 years ago, and that why i came back). Well except Sofiene. And again reason - q2 isnt nice. And if you havent played it for a while you wont know that its not graphics that give this game its "fun". If you show q2 and Crysis or CoD to a 13 years old what do you think he will choose. I doubt he will even look at q2. Once again, you need to "know" this game to love it. I played all new games, none of them stay on my HDD longer that to finish them. But thats only cause I dont judge q2 by its "cover".
And q2 will be alive as long as old players will play it. There is no way, as it is now, to get fresh blood in to this game. And if kids wont start playing it there is nothing that we can do. So we should hope for some skilled programmer, or their group to rewrite q2, or put it on newer graphics engine. Maybe we should write to J. Carmack and ask him emo
Next are players them self. I might repeat myself here. But again, you need to think about who is playing this game. Its not kids that play here anymore. Thats people with jobs, studies, families kids or other games emo I love this game but I dont have that much time for it. And if it wont earn me money I wont have time for it. For me this game is just an hour or so of fun. I think most people have similar reasons. And from what you wrote and what you want to do can be done just by having people that will dedicate a lot of their time just for organization, not playing, simple organization. I suppose even now with this small amount of teams and players there is quite a lot of work involved. And what do admins get for it - abuse form players emo right to kick someone from server. And thats just a small league. To get q2 going again you need to push it outside. Like PURRI wrote, you need to spread the word that its still kicking, its still alive and hope that some veterans will come, and maybe some younger people will follow. You need to advertise it, you need articles, stories, interviews, fragmovies, shoutcasts, commentaries. Something that would attract people. But that is full time job. Do we have enough people that would spare this much of their time to do this?
And thats just running and promoting Q2.

Motivating players is another topic. We need to ask why people play q2, why they played it in the past? I dont have answers to these questions, I havent played that long. For me this is fun game. Literally fun, I enjoy playing it, I do laugh a lot while playing and there are lots of nice people in q2 community. But for old players all this might be in the past. There is no competition maybe? I havent seen much oldschool players. But the only example that I can think is Damiah, he really tried to play in EDL, but it was sad to look at, he isnt motivated, not interested. And I have no ideas what would make such players come back to q2.
Same with clans, ofcourse I dont know about other clans but KOB had a difficult one last season and i will be surprised if they will play this season again, but thats the same reasons, no motivation, no time to play it. SO no practice, no pcw's and then its loss after loss and after that noone wants to play. And cause there aren't many clans left i cant see how can there be more divisions than current 2.
Prizes are good. And I would be happy if there would be a possibility to donate. So that people could give as much as they want, and get some sort of reward, maybe reward admins too. I totally support that and I would be one of the first to donate some, even though I have no chance in winning anything here. emo But I also agree, that its not the prizes that are main thing. Of course if that would be a decent amount or a good prize (not just a simple mouse or money for beer emo ) it would motivate a lot of players. Good example Jump tournament, it had a decent prize fond and attracted quite a few players. If there would be even as much as 1000euro prize for EDL or Edge you would get much more in players. I would definitely try more and would put considerable effort to get to the top, not just simple sit in the bottom of the ladder. Get such prize in EuroQ2 and i guarantee All polish q2 clans will register emo
This is a small amount, but can we get even this much? Doubt it. :/
So cause there is no quick way to get new blood or make q2 interesting to masses then you need to try to get old players back. And hope that there will be more people like you or Sofiene, that can give more to community.
[Went to play some q2 and forgot what was I about]
Anyway, long story short. Make q2 more attractive if not by remaking it then by simply actively promoting it. Speak to old players, find out what would motivate them to come back, and what keeping them from doing that.
Keep a good work Welkin. Good luck and sorry for not so optimistic post

Edited: 2011-09-10 16:48
2011-09-10 13:20 
well,i think newash is right,the q2scene site need a refresh,like adding new sections,and pak download section...,also like welkin and purri said,we need to reunite the euro q2 scene,especially the polish one,there is alot of polish players that can play in edl and there is alot of plq2 players that can play in euroq2l but they just want to play in polish servers.

im more than sure that if plq2 accept to change some rules and allow euro servers or just equal server for both teams,alot of euro clans will join,presonally,i want to play in plq2 cause i like TDM,but the only thing is that i dont want to play with 120 + ping vs some 20 ping.

it is easy to make a unique and big scene with euro + polish,but polish players and admins dont want,in that case, q2 will die,players are less and less active cause of no-much leagues in euro scene,if polish players accept to help and change some rules in plq2,pld and other tournaments,im sure that we will see q2 reborn.

also,about oldschoolers,im more than sure that they want to play,but they just dont have the motivation or just dont want to play on a team where they dont know anyone, like dimmo,provi,gerppa,damiah,slippi,foen,blaizz,morph-x,odium,nassal and even mkuh and scooby,they want to play and re-join the fun,but they dont want to play with unknown players,they want to play with their mates,and they want that someone encourage them.

man,do you guys know that the qw scene is more active than q2 ? the reason is that they are allways motivated and like qw,even if they play other games like ql or sc2,they like q2 and allways want to play it,they allways refresh the qw community with new maps,new leagues,interviews,videos,tutorials for new-players,they even still update their qw client with new stuffs,i like the ezquake (qw client),i can even say that it is better than r1q2 with some features and fun stuffs.

we need new stuffs in the q2scene,we need to unite the euro scene and became one big euro scene,players are just lazy and just say "q2 is dead,it is an old game" do you think that q2 is old,go to see the qw community,q1 is older than q2 but more active than q2,the only reason why q2 is "dying" is the players.

sry for my broken english.
2011-09-10 10:44 
agree with PURRI, especially with #1 priority...
2011-09-09 15:06 
Sorry to tell this Gerdt but it looks like empty words even the idea is right.

Refresh q2scene site then - delete servers, deathmatch zone, death league links (who needs ? )

Add link to your blog, to plq2, to fajny board, to Even refresh crew section, make new admins, remove old ones. Make q2scene actual, without 1cm of dust.

Looking around instead looking so far.

Edited: 2011-09-09 15:09
2011-09-09 10:50 
I totally agree on stopping the whole Poland vs Rest concept: merge plq2 + euroq2l to one league.

Same goes for pld/edl, pld2v2/2x2?,plq2Insta/nidml etc.

I'm convinced this is the first step to take and it would help a great deal.
2011-09-09 08:30 
Welkin I'm glad, I'm not alone in my thoughts... unfortunately `The time` (to do/change anything) is the biggest problem. The minor problem is scene... it doesnt matter if its polish or euro scene. The rule is the same: everyone is focused on taking rather than giving... The single units can't change the whole situation emo

hope yours text will change somebody aproach to the `dying q2` case
2011-09-09 07:06 
Newash: Obviously not. But that is faaaaaaaar from all that is needed to make some change.
2011-09-08 15:54 
About building bridges: simple link on sidebar to plq2 and from plq2 to Scene is so hard to implement?
2011-09-08 09:59 
Purri: I couldn't agree more with everything you say. This is all covered in my manifesto - but some parts are yet to be published. However, I believe you personally could make alot of difference, especially when trying to get some old people back into the game. You've been around for so long, and those Finns you're talking about, for example, they are definitely within your reach. emo

Purri, push people to sign up for the upcoming leagues!
2011-09-08 08:41 
Nicely written Welkin, you are trying so hard and I wish we had a few more like you and this would not be the case perhaps emo

Either way, there are so many things you can do. A quick way to create 1x league with more clans would be to try and convince the current Polish teams/scene to actually sign up for the Euroq2l again, to increase the amount of clans in a short period of time. This would automatically create more interest and activity. If we keep 'splitting' the few teams we still have in different regions like we have past years, then it will continue to go down in activity. I do understand the Polish 'patriotism' or whatever you call it, that they want to play in their own country against their own teams and 'Fuck the rest' kind of mentality, but it will not help the European Q2 community. We can't force anyone to agree or play, but I would welcome the idea to try and see why this is the case.

There are tons of things you could do, but this alone would be my personal #1 priority. Unite the current scene, then reach for the inactive players that are still around, but for various reasons they don't find playing q2 in leagues attractive any more. For instance, I know the Finnish Div.1 players would be able to create 1-2 very high skilled teams with the right motivation/direction, but there is something there as well that prevents this from happening.

I'm not sure if 'money/prizes' would motivate others, I know for sure it would not make a difference for me. Should focus more on the scene and what people want ->

Match reports? Live commentary for games? Active reporting/news posts? Fragmovies after tournaments that summarizes the games/nicest frags? A good idea is to check other similar communities (Read: Quakeworld) how they treat new comers and have such a advanced community for their size. We also need the information to spread a bit outside the 'q2scene' portal for bigger games and such (Read Esreality) to let people know something is still happening in Q2. There are a lot of old Q2 players active in other games, but just don't follow this portal, and would make sense to inform them when bigger games are happening so they would be 'triggered' to perhaps watch, and then later start playing again -> Marketing for the win! emo

These are just a few suggestions, and don't want to spam this thread more.

I think you need a few influential people (admins - players) who can start checking these kind of things for this to work.

Keep it up emo

Edited: 2011-09-08 08:53

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